F1 Tippers, your attention, please
Jeroen 5 yearsHi guys,
I'm sorry, but I have to get this off my chest.
Ever since F1 Tipping has been introduced, I have participated. It has had some small issues over the years, but they have always been resolved.
It has come to my attention that this year the cut-off time for F1 tipping has sometimes been 1 hour after the start of qualifying. Those who tip after the start of qualifying, get their tips cancelled, which is only fair and the right thing to do.
Last weekend, around 1 hour before F1 qualifying at Paul Ricard I wanted to submit my tips, since I always wait for the results of the FP's and see if there's a last-minute engine change or gearbox change or a driver gets a penalty from the previous race which could affect quali and race results.
But the tipping for France was already closed and Round 8 Austria was already activated, so I couldn't submit my tips anymore ! I pleaded in a "Report Problem"-message if my tips could be manually imported since I'm P2 in the standings and it would really hurt my total score and I submitted my tips in that private message, 40 minutes before qualifying started. Time and date is included in the message, I'm sure.
No sympathy or understanding from the staff-member who handled the case, claiming : Tipping closed off correctly as scheduled. Please note round-specific cut-off times. Tipping closed as scheduled, not EARLY. Tipping cut-offs are different per each round and are not necessarily at the start of the scheduled qualifying session.
Excuse me ? What is one of the first lines on the F1 Tipping-page ? And I quote :
Tipping closes at the start of qualifying for each round, so be sure to get your tips in on time so you can score the maximum points for the year !
I have never received a notification that tipping cut-offs are different per each round, so I was completely unaware ! It worked fine for 7 years and this year the format has been changed ? Why not close tipping before FP1 or after the race ? Ridiculous...
To make matters even worse, all of my tips were correct, which I've achieved only for the third time in Tipping history. And now I get a big fat zero and drop 25 places in the standings...
I'm not at fault, but I'm the one who gets punished. Hence my frustration..
I'm hoping this will be re-investigated and I can count on your understanding, admin and staff, because I feel pretty hard done by and this just doesn't feel right.
After 12 years and uploading nearly 5000 clips, I think I'm entitled to a little respect.
Jeroen
wdc 5 years
Have to agree here. I'd just thought that the varying cutoff times were just timezone conversion/daylight savings errors rather than intentional, I don't understand why this is the case.
In fact for qualifying in Baku the cutoff time was an hour after qualifying started, and it was only because of red flag delays that one wouldn't have been able to enter the correct Q3 results at the end of the session for easy tipping points.
Have to agree here. I'd just thought that the varying cutoff times were just timezone conversion/daylight savings errors rather than intentional, I don't understand why this is the case.
In fact for qualifying in Baku the cutoff time was an hour after qualifying started, and it was only because of red flag delays that one wouldn't have been able to enter the correct Q3 results at the end of the session for easy tipping points.
V8s_are_the_BEST 5 years
you have a very fair point there Jeroen, a very fair point, hope this gets resolved properly, and agree, i think you have earned abit of respect.
In my opinion if there is a change it should flash up on the home screen when you open the page, even if there is a list of latest things like we have all seen in past for promotions, as when i see those things im like, ok great thats good info.
All the best mate
you have a very fair point there Jeroen, a very fair point, hope this gets resolved properly, and agree, i think you have earned abit of respect.
In my opinion if there is a change it should flash up on the home screen when you open the page, even if there is a list of latest things like we have all seen in past for promotions, as when i see those things im like, ok great thats good info.
All the best mate
darkmatter 5 years
I don't do F1 tipping myself but I do agree about a bit more respect, at least acknowledgement that something needs looked at, thought about or altered, is sufficient. The Admins have a hard job to do, but sometimes I feel that they can be a bit on the quick side to close an issue, and there is no chance to reply to them. Perhaps this can be fixed, even just to say thank you.
I don't do F1 tipping myself but I do agree about a bit more respect, at least acknowledgement that something needs looked at, thought about or altered, is sufficient. The Admins have a hard job to do, but sometimes I feel that they can be a bit on the quick side to close an issue, and there is no chance to reply to them. Perhaps this can be fixed, even just to say thank you.
C8H10N4O2 5 years 5 years
This year's F1 tipping started wrong from the beginning, with the first round being canceled essentially. In this round I faced the exact same issue with Jeroen when I tried to change my initial tip immediately after the end of FP3, only to find out that the tipping had already been closed. I believe that he is absolutely justified to feel frustrated and, since his tip was sent via p.m. to staff members before the beginning of the qualifying, it would only be fair that it should be taken into account at this round's leaderboard.
This year's F1 tipping started wrong from the beginning, with the first round being canceled essentially. In this round I faced the exact same issue with Jeroen when I tried to change my initial tip immediately after the end of FP3, only to find out that the tipping had already been closed. I believe that he is absolutely justified to feel frustrated and, since his tip was sent via p.m. to staff members before the beginning of the qualifying, it would only be fair that it should be taken into account at this round's leaderboard.
Jasie 5 years 5 years
Same exact thing happened to me :(
(except the perfect score, 2 laps too many... :P)
I feel like this is an issue that might just be caused by not having multiple sets of dedicated eyes to double check it, rather than any funky rules - Monaco had the cutoff time set for the beginning of the *race* - a whole day late. I feel if a few of us frequent visitors confirmed the timing a couple of days in advance, it could certainly help things run smoother :)
(BTW, looks like the Austria races are ok, but Silverstone is off, due to the different format) ;)
Same exact thing happened to me :(
(except the perfect score, 2 laps too many... :P)
I feel like this is an issue that might just be caused by not having multiple sets of dedicated eyes to double check it, rather than any funky rules - Monaco had the cutoff time set for the beginning of the *race* - a whole day late. I feel if a few of us frequent visitors confirmed the timing a couple of days in advance, it could certainly help things run smoother :)
(BTW, looks like the Austria races are ok, but Silverstone is off, due to the different format) ;)
RogerWilco 5 years
I sympathise fully as I went through similar myself with round 2 of Supercars this year. Also understood that tipping would close when qualifying began and ended up missing out due to tipping closing before practise. This after being first in round 1. Also received very little in the way of understanding or explanation after sending numerous messages before qualifying began.. A bit frustrating as I then realised that nearly every round of Supercars cuts off before practise even begins and pretty much lost interest. I also believe that you are entitled to respect and the fact that you submitted before qualifying should be taken into account!
I sympathise fully as I went through similar myself with round 2 of Supercars this year. Also understood that tipping would close when qualifying began and ended up missing out due to tipping closing before practise. This after being first in round 1. Also received very little in the way of understanding or explanation after sending numerous messages before qualifying began.. A bit frustrating as I then realised that nearly every round of Supercars cuts off before practise even begins and pretty much lost interest. I also believe that you are entitled to respect and the fact that you submitted before qualifying should be taken into account!
hvs5b 5 years
"No sympathy or understanding from the staff-member who handled the case"
Is exactly why I left the site for 6 months previously (on an entirely different matter), so unfortunately I am not all that surprised.
However I've always seen you as an OG of the site, a big contributor in many different ways and a valued member of the community. It's really can't be that hard to take the legitimately submitted Tips (albeit in the wrong format) and continue as normal.
I understand the argument of not wanting to make a precedent, but "After 12 years and uploading nearly 5000 clips, I think I'm entitled to a little respect."......this
Perhaps things should have been handled differently..
"No sympathy or understanding from the staff-member who handled the case"
Is exactly why I left the site for 6 months previously (on an entirely different matter), so unfortunately I am not all that surprised.
However I've always seen you as an OG of the site, a big contributor in many different ways and a valued member of the community. It's really can't be that hard to take the legitimately submitted Tips (albeit in the wrong format) and continue as normal.
I understand the argument of not wanting to make a precedent, but "After 12 years and uploading nearly 5000 clips, I think I'm entitled to a little respect."......this
Perhaps things should have been handled differently..
PaddockHillBend 5 years
On the core point of Jeroen issues with tipping this weekend i would hope that a sensible solution can be found so that it is both fair to Jeroen and all the other members who join in with the tipping competition.
Jeroen is i think a major user/contributor to this site and deserves to have proper attention given to points he raises.
I would like to add that i would guess most people visit this site to have fun and relaxation and that would include Darcy and all the other administrators so i hope everybody will be able to stand back and reflect and find ways to turn this situation around.
Card collecting and Tipping are two of the key elements of what makes this a great place to be part of and i would hope that any observations members have on how to improve/enhance these things are considered fairly by the administration side.
Likewise members(myself included) should not forget how much effort and time has to be put in by Darcy and others to keep the place afloat and functioning behind the scenes. Perhaps this incident can lead to some constructive dialogue on things that could be sharpened up or communicated more clearly from an admin point of view.
I really enjoy my time here and its one of the reasons i continue to put together card sets together for others to enjoy (i hope!)
The more content and interaction we can all have helps to keep this place inviting and unique
Given Jeroen ability to collect cards like a freight train in motion the next card set i work on might have to consist of around 150 cards! That will take him about 45 minutes to collect...
Anyway in short (based on what is written here) let Jeroen tips stand and lets tidy up the detail for all whilst not losing sight of the fact you do need rules and structure that we can all follow and adhere too.
We are all motorsport fans here you know ( i cannot include Formula E in that!)
On the core point of Jeroen issues with tipping this weekend i would hope that a sensible solution can be found so that it is both fair to Jeroen and all the other members who join in with the tipping competition.
Jeroen is i think a major user/contributor to this site and deserves to have proper attention given to points he raises.
I would like to add that i would guess most people visit this site to have fun and relaxation and that would include Darcy and all the other administrators so i hope everybody will be able to stand back and reflect and find ways to turn this situation around.
Card collecting and Tipping are two of the key elements of what makes this a great place to be part of and i would hope that any observations members have on how to improve/enhance these things are considered fairly by the administration side.
Likewise members(myself included) should not forget how much effort and time has to be put in by Darcy and others to keep the place afloat and functioning behind the scenes. Perhaps this incident can lead to some constructive dialogue on things that could be sharpened up or communicated more clearly from an admin point of view.
I really enjoy my time here and its one of the reasons i continue to put together card sets together for others to enjoy (i hope!)
The more content and interaction we can all have helps to keep this place inviting and unique
Given Jeroen ability to collect cards like a freight train in motion the next card set i work on might have to consist of around 150 cards! That will take him about 45 minutes to collect...
Anyway in short (based on what is written here) let Jeroen tips stand and lets tidy up the detail for all whilst not losing sight of the fact you do need rules and structure that we can all follow and adhere too.
We are all motorsport fans here you know ( i cannot include Formula E in that!)
Kurrganslaw 5 years
I also agree that this should be looked into. I also was under the impression that tipping was open until Quali started. I have not run into this myself but realize that I could have too since I usually wait until after FP3 results are out. Please let Jeroen's tips get calculated into results.
I also agree that this should be looked into. I also was under the impression that tipping was open until Quali started. I have not run into this myself but realize that I could have too since I usually wait until after FP3 results are out. Please let Jeroen's tips get calculated into results.
admin 5 years
I'm happy to talk to this, given I'm the one who loads the cut-off times into the system.
The cut-off time for France was updated when the Turkish Grand Prix was cancelled (itself a replacement of the Canadian Grand Prix) and to accommodate the second race at Spielberg, the French Grand Prix was moved a week earlier. This was early May 11th. From May 11 through to June 20, the cut-off time did not change at all. The alerts across the site menus triggered at their usual times, 72 hours before the cut-off.
The reason that this round had it's cut-off scheduled earlier than the scheduled start of qualifying was due to expected server outages in the hour leading into qualifying. When we expect a server outage, we work to avoid impact to users. In a balance between "users expect to tip up until the cut-off and might wait until that last hour, but then cannot access the site" vs "let's give ~40 days notice that tipping will close early", I always will prefer a notice period. The originally scheduled dates for the French Grand Prix did not clash with any expected server outages, so did have its original cut-off time scheduled at the start of qualifying.
Sometimes there are technical issues that means tipping does not close in time, and you'll be familiar with our processes to remove tips entered after a qualifying session has begun. Sometimes there are idiot moments by me, like when I accidentally wiped half the tips from F1 Round 1 this year and then promptly updated the database backups with the newly empty data - and in those instances I have to work out something that is as fair as can be.
For the French round we saw 51 users submit their tips before the cut-off time, slightly below last round's 58 - this suggests that most users were aware of the cut-off time that had been published since the day the round had been re-scheduled, some month and a bit prior.
With regard to the comments about the staff member closing off the reports - that was also me. The Report Problem function of the site is a technical function of the site and a such staff members will update them in a matter-of-fact way in direct response to the reported problem. In this case, there was no problem with the site, and thus the report was closed stating that. Ongoing discussions around misunderstandings, site improvements, feedback, or requests for assistance are better suited to the Forums - as this post has demonstrated quite well, to allow a wider discussion. I welcome feedback regarding how the staff manage the site, but do take a stand when any of our staff are being called disrespectful while stating facts. I also note that the quote attributed to staff that has been published are partly from the first and fourth reports on the same topic, having previously been communicated to that there was no issue, and tipping closed as scheduled. As you'll all be aware, the staff who contribute to and manage this site are doing it for free, they're volunteers who read and respond to every reported problem, about 6,000 of them now. It's perhaps mutual respect that needs to improve. Its the users who are the life of this site, and I'm so proud of this little community - but it's the staff team that make managing this site possible as it continues to grow, so I'm as keen as anyone to make sure we're all on the same page with improving the site into the future.
My Messages are always open, and we'll never suppress the right to an opinion on the Forums - let's keep the conversation flowing!
---------------------
With that all being said - there is always room for improvement! Going forward, the menu alert that tipping is closing soon will include an approximation of time-left (eg. 25m, 2d, 9h) to further surface this important information. This will go live later this week for the F1 competition, and the week following for Supercars.
The language on the tipping page has been updated to be less specific about the closing time (says 'prior to' instead of 'at the start of'), now aligned to the wording on the Supercars tipping page. That information was erroneous and had been for some time - the live countdown displayed alongside it should be referenced the source of truth as it reflects the actual cut-off time.
And soon, more staff will have access to manage the tipping competitions. We've been building this up over the year, and probably won't be able to make the switch until the off-seasons, but the plan is that multiple people will have ample opportunity to help users with any questions or concerns they may have regarding these game elements. We already have staff who have identified they will be willing to assist. While everything is tracking quite well, if I can't get this over the line, instead the Tipping competitions will be retired at the end of the year.
---------------------
In summary - nothing failed this round. Having a cut-off time earlier than the scheduled qualifying commencement is not common, but has happened numerous times before (typically to avoid a daylight savings change mishap, and a couple of times for scheduled server website outages). Staff responded to repeated duplicate reports about a perceived issue, that in fact was not a failing. And, we'll try and make it less likely for users to miss cut-off times.
As always, interested in your collective thoughts.
I'm happy to talk to this, given I'm the one who loads the cut-off times into the system.
The cut-off time for France was updated when the Turkish Grand Prix was cancelled (itself a replacement of the Canadian Grand Prix) and to accommodate the second race at Spielberg, the French Grand Prix was moved a week earlier. This was early May 11th. From May 11 through to June 20, the cut-off time did not change at all. The alerts across the site menus triggered at their usual times, 72 hours before the cut-off.
The reason that this round had it's cut-off scheduled earlier than the scheduled start of qualifying was due to expected server outages in the hour leading into qualifying. When we expect a server outage, we work to avoid impact to users. In a balance between "users expect to tip up until the cut-off and might wait until that last hour, but then cannot access the site" vs "let's give ~40 days notice that tipping will close early", I always will prefer a notice period. The originally scheduled dates for the French Grand Prix did not clash with any expected server outages, so did have its original cut-off time scheduled at the start of qualifying.
Sometimes there are technical issues that means tipping does not close in time, and you'll be familiar with our processes to remove tips entered after a qualifying session has begun. Sometimes there are idiot moments by me, like when I accidentally wiped half the tips from F1 Round 1 this year and then promptly updated the database backups with the newly empty data - and in those instances I have to work out something that is as fair as can be.
For the French round we saw 51 users submit their tips before the cut-off time, slightly below last round's 58 - this suggests that most users were aware of the cut-off time that had been published since the day the round had been re-scheduled, some month and a bit prior.
With regard to the comments about the staff member closing off the reports - that was also me. The Report Problem function of the site is a technical function of the site and a such staff members will update them in a matter-of-fact way in direct response to the reported problem. In this case, there was no problem with the site, and thus the report was closed stating that. Ongoing discussions around misunderstandings, site improvements, feedback, or requests for assistance are better suited to the Forums - as this post has demonstrated quite well, to allow a wider discussion. I welcome feedback regarding how the staff manage the site, but do take a stand when any of our staff are being called disrespectful while stating facts. I also note that the quote attributed to staff that has been published are partly from the first and fourth reports on the same topic, having previously been communicated to that there was no issue, and tipping closed as scheduled. As you'll all be aware, the staff who contribute to and manage this site are doing it for free, they're volunteers who read and respond to every reported problem, about 6,000 of them now. It's perhaps mutual respect that needs to improve. Its the users who are the life of this site, and I'm so proud of this little community - but it's the staff team that make managing this site possible as it continues to grow, so I'm as keen as anyone to make sure we're all on the same page with improving the site into the future.
My Messages are always open, and we'll never suppress the right to an opinion on the Forums - let's keep the conversation flowing!
---------------------
With that all being said - there is always room for improvement! Going forward, the menu alert that tipping is closing soon will include an approximation of time-left (eg. 25m, 2d, 9h) to further surface this important information. This will go live later this week for the F1 competition, and the week following for Supercars.
The language on the tipping page has been updated to be less specific about the closing time (says 'prior to' instead of 'at the start of'), now aligned to the wording on the Supercars tipping page. That information was erroneous and had been for some time - the live countdown displayed alongside it should be referenced the source of truth as it reflects the actual cut-off time.
And soon, more staff will have access to manage the tipping competitions. We've been building this up over the year, and probably won't be able to make the switch until the off-seasons, but the plan is that multiple people will have ample opportunity to help users with any questions or concerns they may have regarding these game elements. We already have staff who have identified they will be willing to assist. While everything is tracking quite well, if I can't get this over the line, instead the Tipping competitions will be retired at the end of the year.
---------------------
In summary - nothing failed this round. Having a cut-off time earlier than the scheduled qualifying commencement is not common, but has happened numerous times before (typically to avoid a daylight savings change mishap, and a couple of times for scheduled server website outages). Staff responded to repeated duplicate reports about a perceived issue, that in fact was not a failing. And, we'll try and make it less likely for users to miss cut-off times.
As always, interested in your collective thoughts.
ThomasFisher 5 years
I have missed two rounds of Supercars tipping in the previous years because of the ambiguous description of cut off time. So now I always submit my first version of tipping at least before Thursday, and if I remember to see F1 FP results, I will update it before quali (and I forgot this week haha:;). I think this method helps me at least ensure some incomes.
And yes, I agree that more respect is needed. I saw admin had given some explanation and made your tips counted. Hope you have a better discussion.
I have missed two rounds of Supercars tipping in the previous years because of the ambiguous description of cut off time. So now I always submit my first version of tipping at least before Thursday, and if I remember to see F1 FP results, I will update it before quali (and I forgot this week haha:;). I think this method helps me at least ensure some incomes.
And yes, I agree that more respect is needed. I saw admin had given some explanation and made your tips counted. Hope you have a better discussion.
ianmarg 5 years
glad to see there has been resolve to the current situation and issues, only problem i have had with tipping was when everyone was given the same score in f1 earlier this year as i had a good weekend and lost 27 points. personally i am unable to leave it until the last minute to tip due to the hours i work, so normally tip the day before.
Respect, yes it is needed, but in all the years of going on forums and different websites, i know this forum is reasonably quiet but we can also message each other, this is by far the best i have ever gone on in terms of respect of each other and no idiots trying to abuse others, in that respect, well done everyone.
glad to see there has been resolve to the current situation and issues, only problem i have had with tipping was when everyone was given the same score in f1 earlier this year as i had a good weekend and lost 27 points. personally i am unable to leave it until the last minute to tip due to the hours i work, so normally tip the day before.
Respect, yes it is needed, but in all the years of going on forums and different websites, i know this forum is reasonably quiet but we can also message each other, this is by far the best i have ever gone on in terms of respect of each other and no idiots trying to abuse others, in that respect, well done everyone.
Jeroen 5 years
To each and every one of you : My sincere gratitude for the kind messages of support and comments in this thread :) Big thank you to admin as well for solving this issue and taking time to explain all the details.
Thank you so much for being the best community in motorsport universe ! :D
To each and every one of you : My sincere gratitude for the kind messages of support and comments in this thread :) Big thank you to admin as well for solving this issue and taking time to explain all the details.
Thank you so much for being the best community in motorsport universe ! :D
RogerWilco 5 years
Glad this has all been resolved in a very fair way, and thank you to Admin for the comprehensive explanation and report.
Glad this has all been resolved in a very fair way, and thank you to Admin for the comprehensive explanation and report.
sketch7000 5 years
Its great that Jeroen, and Jasie too, have had their scores updated, although at the same time I find it slightly frustrating! Simply because I had the same problem a couple of months ago, with a similar response from whoever dealt with it. Stupidly I chose to accept the decision, but now wish I had a major rant on this forum instead as that seems to provoke a much more human response?
Aside from this, generally the place is great and the card set creators are much appreciated, so thank you!
Its great that Jeroen, and Jasie too, have had their scores updated, although at the same time I find it slightly frustrating! Simply because I had the same problem a couple of months ago, with a similar response from whoever dealt with it. Stupidly I chose to accept the decision, but now wish I had a major rant on this forum instead as that seems to provoke a much more human response?
Aside from this, generally the place is great and the card set creators are much appreciated, so thank you!
sketch7000 5 years 5 years
Re-reading my reply above, I feel it perhaps looks like a bit of a moan at Darcy/whoever dealt with my particular issue. I'd like to clarify that my comment is nothing to do with wanting my scores to count in the tipping, but more to do with the general attitude received from Darcy/staff as applicable when perhaps a slightly less robotic yes/no type response would probably be a much better approach especially if wanting to continue to grow this 'community'.
However it also occurred to me that it shouldn't matter if it is Jeroen with 12 years and 5000 clips to his name, or Mickey Mouse with 1 week and 0 clips, the interaction with Darcy/staff should be the same?
Personally whilst I didn't like the response I received when I tried to submit my tips, I accepted the decision and moved on. Everyone was in the same boat at the end of the day. However now that Jeroen and Jasie have been looked after, it makes me wonder how many other people (lesser known users potentially) had the same issue, and haven't been treated in the same way (again I don't mean myself!)
I think we need to remember that its all just for fun right? Maybe not worth ranting and raving about - far more important things in life than losing a few points in the Darcy F1 tipping game.....
Re-reading my reply above, I feel it perhaps looks like a bit of a moan at Darcy/whoever dealt with my particular issue. I'd like to clarify that my comment is nothing to do with wanting my scores to count in the tipping, but more to do with the general attitude received from Darcy/staff as applicable when perhaps a slightly less robotic yes/no type response would probably be a much better approach especially if wanting to continue to grow this 'community'.
However it also occurred to me that it shouldn't matter if it is Jeroen with 12 years and 5000 clips to his name, or Mickey Mouse with 1 week and 0 clips, the interaction with Darcy/staff should be the same?
Personally whilst I didn't like the response I received when I tried to submit my tips, I accepted the decision and moved on. Everyone was in the same boat at the end of the day. However now that Jeroen and Jasie have been looked after, it makes me wonder how many other people (lesser known users potentially) had the same issue, and haven't been treated in the same way (again I don't mean myself!)
I think we need to remember that its all just for fun right? Maybe not worth ranting and raving about - far more important things in life than losing a few points in the Darcy F1 tipping game.....